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Message |
Disillusioned_01
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: .Net project failures |
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Having recently moved on to a BA role (After studying .Net for a while and
passing couple of ms.net exams )
I have witnessed couple of failed projects in .Net . Thought I might share
my sadness
Let me outline the project failed (Brief Discription)
Client: (namewithheld)
Supplier: (namewithheld from India(They are learning)) (But word is that MS
brains got involved in last minute)
Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and inserts/ Little CPU more
IO due to DB
After shelling out few million dollars the project died since it
cannot match (not even close) legacy Performance offered by IBM
Personally I am quite sad at this outcome
Beacause
a. A Initial Development opportunity in .Net lost so other .net initiatives
are shelved
b.Missed chance to Kick IBM on butt !
c.>net developers had to shelf their desire to be on a good organisation
for long
d.Afraid that it sent wrong signals to other IT managers especially during
friday drinking time ....
And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
I personally know at least 1 other project .
I can't help wondering how many more are there
I wonder does anybody has been involved in project with
such performance implications
Any comments appreciated
------------------ |
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The Poster Formerly Known
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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| Quote: | Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and inserts/ Little CPU more
IO due to DB
|
Simply down to poor infrastructure planning/understanding - don't tell
me, single database server!!! please don't say yes....
How application servers in the farm?
How many of those transactions come through the wan? How many web
servers in the farm?
I was involved with a banking system back in 1998 which was expected
to be able to handle 100,000 secure 'business transactions' an hour
(peek time = 1 to 1.5 hours per day), which is somewhat less than your
scenario, however this involved :-
32 web servers dual PII 450 512 ram.
Initially 16 application servers (same spec as the web server's I
think)
There were four Oracle database servers running on AIX (big spec
machines)
The whole system, as a result of performance testing was determined to
have a [theoretical] functional limit of about one million business
transaction per hour. In reality, the system never received more than
10,000 business transaction an hour, even at peek time, so the real
winner was idle time!
The main reason for the success of the system was the excellent
communication between the ms, ibm and oracle consultants, there was no
inter company bickering whatsoever - we would not have tolerated that
anyway!
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3 |
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The Poster Formerly Known
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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| Quote: | And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
|
The development tools have nothing to do with why projects fail.
Projects fail because of incompetence brought about by stupidity and
ignorance. This project would just have likely have failed if it were
being developed on the j2ee platform.
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3 |
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Hermit Dave
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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well as far as concurrent transactions are concerned (without considering
the 30-40 table inserts) DB2 is the best thing. Read an article on
concurrent transactions databases..
SQL Server was almost as good as Oracle but DB2 is way ahead (more than
twice as many as oracle and still going strong).
As my bro once put it a few years back... DB2 had to be scaled down to make
it work on *nix / NT. Where as Oracle / Sql Server and the rest of them had
to be scaled up from uni-processor arch to use more than 1..
--
Regards,
Hermit Dave
(http://hdave.blogspot.com)
"Disillusioned_01" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:uhVYwskmEHA.2020@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | Having recently moved on to a BA role (After studying .Net for a while and
passing couple of ms.net exams )
I have witnessed couple of failed projects in .Net . Thought I might
share
my sadness
Let me outline the project failed (Brief Discription)
Client: (namewithheld)
Supplier: (namewithheld from India(They are learning)) (But word is that
MS
brains got involved in last minute)
Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and inserts/ Little CPU
more
IO due to DB
After shelling out few million dollars the project died since it
cannot match (not even close) legacy Performance offered by IBM
Personally I am quite sad at this outcome
Beacause
a. A Initial Development opportunity in .Net lost so other .net
initiatives
are shelved
b.Missed chance to Kick IBM on butt !
c.>net developers had to shelf their desire to be on a good organisation
for long
d.Afraid that it sent wrong signals to other IT managers especially during
friday drinking time ....
And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
I personally know at least 1 other project .
I can't help wondering how many more are there
I wonder does anybody has been involved in project with
such performance implications
Any comments appreciated
------------------
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| Back to top |
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The Poster Formerly Known
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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| Quote: | As my bro once put it a few years back... DB2 had to be scaled down to make
it work on *nix / NT. Where as Oracle / Sql Server and the rest of them had
to be scaled up from uni-processor arch to use more than 1..
|
nice.
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:00 am Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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Is inserting into 40 tables per transaction really a business requirement or
just the result of poor database design? I bet they didn't even start with a
proven industry specific meta model or hire professional database developers
to do the work. They probably just gave each programmer a DBO login and let
them do their own thang.
WKidd
"Disillusioned_01" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:uhVYwskmEHA.2020@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | Having recently moved on to a BA role (After studying .Net for a while and
passing couple of ms.net exams )
I have witnessed couple of failed projects in .Net . Thought I might
share
my sadness
Let me outline the project failed (Brief Discription)
Client: (namewithheld)
Supplier: (namewithheld from India(They are learning)) (But word is that
MS
brains got involved in last minute)
Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and inserts/ Little CPU
more
IO due to DB
After shelling out few million dollars the project died since it
cannot match (not even close) legacy Performance offered by IBM
Personally I am quite sad at this outcome
Beacause
a. A Initial Development opportunity in .Net lost so other .net
initiatives
are shelved
b.Missed chance to Kick IBM on butt !
c.>net developers had to shelf their desire to be on a good organisation
for long
d.Afraid that it sent wrong signals to other IT managers especially during
friday drinking time ....
And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
I personally know at least 1 other project .
I can't help wondering how many more are there
I wonder does anybody has been involved in project with
such performance implications
Any comments appreciated
------------------
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| Back to top |
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bb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere wrote:
| Quote: | And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
The development tools have nothing to do with why projects fail.
Projects fail because of incompetence brought about by stupidity and
ignorance. This project would just have likely have failed if it were
being developed on the j2ee platform.
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
|
here here.
--
------------------------
Think your smart?
Prove your programming power @ the OSI Geek Challenges
http://www.osix.net
------------------------ |
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Disillusioned_01
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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Well please consider this a reply for every kind folk(and not so kind 'I
knew it all' teens)
We had an investment on existing application which took 7 years to develop(I
don't want hear some ignorant yelling
then some thing wrong with it at this point we did not have off shelf
applications @ that point in time ) on a db2 /MVS(Recent upgrade dont pick
on it)
all we done was to replace existing application using IBM prop hardware with
..Net /mq front end.
Well we thought MS guys would know something about app performance
I know(in theory) if you put an oracle 10 g Federated Server and some
machines around it It would work
well it is just that this little customised applications having around 900+
tables can't be ported
that easily
To kline it was only one DB (But I am not ashamed yet because it still
works )
"Hermit Dave" <hermitd.REMOVE@CAPS.AND.DOTS.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ujzqBclmEHA.3172@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | well as far as concurrent transactions are concerned (without considering
the 30-40 table inserts) DB2 is the best thing. Read an article on
concurrent transactions databases..
SQL Server was almost as good as Oracle but DB2 is way ahead (more than
twice as many as oracle and still going strong).
As my bro once put it a few years back... DB2 had to be scaled down to
make
it work on *nix / NT. Where as Oracle / Sql Server and the rest of them
had
to be scaled up from uni-processor arch to use more than 1..
--
Regards,
Hermit Dave
(http://hdave.blogspot.com)
"Disillusioned_01" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:uhVYwskmEHA.2020@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Having recently moved on to a BA role (After studying .Net for a while
and
passing couple of ms.net exams )
I have witnessed couple of failed projects in .Net . Thought I might
share
my sadness
Let me outline the project failed (Brief Discription)
Client: (namewithheld)
Supplier: (namewithheld from India(They are learning)) (But word is that
MS
brains got involved in last minute)
Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and inserts/ Little CPU
more
IO due to DB
After shelling out few million dollars the project died since it
cannot match (not even close) legacy Performance offered by IBM
Personally I am quite sad at this outcome
Beacause
a. A Initial Development opportunity in .Net lost so other .net
initiatives
are shelved
b.Missed chance to Kick IBM on butt !
c.>net developers had to shelf their desire to be on a good
organisation
for long
d.Afraid that it sent wrong signals to other IT managers especially
during
friday drinking time ....
And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
I personally know at least 1 other project .
I can't help wondering how many more are there
I wonder does anybody has been involved in project with
such performance implications
Any comments appreciated
------------------
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
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Disillusioned_01
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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|
Guess so. But thanx for your insight!!
"The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
news:1bndk01cfj5vtu5nkk043sp9u2oefc3h1d@4ax.com...
| Quote: | And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
The development tools have nothing to do with why projects fail.
Projects fail because of incompetence brought about by stupidity and
ignorance. This project would just have likely have failed if it were
being developed on the j2ee platform.
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3 |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Disillusioned_01
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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|
thanx . In don't have any practial experience in scaling up/out
web farms. Will try to read more
"The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
news:0gldk0psro3n98trjo9ijvfq6jaqosskl4@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and inserts/ Little CPU
more
IO due to DB
Simply down to poor infrastructure planning/understanding - don't tell
me, single database server!!! please don't say yes....
How application servers in the farm?
How many of those transactions come through the wan? How many web
servers in the farm?
I was involved with a banking system back in 1998 which was expected
to be able to handle 100,000 secure 'business transactions' an hour
(peek time = 1 to 1.5 hours per day), which is somewhat less than your
scenario, however this involved :-
32 web servers dual PII 450 512 ram.
Initially 16 application servers (same spec as the web server's I
think)
There were four Oracle database servers running on AIX (big spec
machines)
The whole system, as a result of performance testing was determined to
have a [theoretical] functional limit of about one million business
transaction per hour. In reality, the system never received more than
10,000 business transaction an hour, even at peek time, so the real
winner was idle time!
The main reason for the success of the system was the excellent
communication between the ms, ibm and oracle consultants, there was no
inter company bickering whatsoever - we would not have tolerated that
anyway!
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3 |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
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Hermit Dave
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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|
Yes i know. but you have to settle for oledb objects instead of managed
objects. that was just wishful thinking on my part when i read the post.
Infact i have never used DB2 and i dont know if i ever will a part of that
knowledge was thanks to my bro (who i thought would have been excited about
Oracle having VM - as another friend of mine.. he couldnt contain himself...
lol.. but my bro's not too bad in what he does.. he turned about and said...
wont help when the rest of it is so crap.. lmao... at that time he made the
statement
.. I donot know what went wrong. but again i do not know the architecture.
In you have 40 table inserts at what point was this determined. My guess is
before the MQ (we all live for the best middle-tier). So for any given task
how many calls were being made across MQ ?
most of the times its not about the technology but how it was used.
But then there are times when you have a procedural code probably written in
C having non of the problems (except being costly to maintain). Thats the
decision made by arch's. the design could have had a very very basic flaw...
and i work in finance. People here steamroll into the project and realise
they are in deep sh^t half way through the project when they have spent a
5 - 10 milllion quid.
enough irony.. i use layered coding. Its like people using 4th normal
databases cause ER is so perfect.. you know how much it costs to do a query
or insert.
Consider web arch. - the databases are slightly denormalised just go get a
better performance. So again blame the architect.
--
Regards,
Hermit Dave
(http://hdave.blogspot.com)
"Jeff Cochran" <jeff.nospam@zina.com> wrote in message
news:414adc4e.2063349279@msnews.microsoft.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:34:15 +0100, "Hermit Dave"
hermitd.REMOVE@CAPS.AND.DOTS.hotmail.com> wrote:
well as far as concurrent transactions are concerned (without considering
the 30-40 table inserts) DB2 is the best thing. Read an article on
concurrent transactions databases..
Using DB2 doesn't preclude a .NET solution. :)
Jeff |
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Jeff Cochran
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
|
|
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:34:15 +0100, "Hermit Dave"
<hermitd.REMOVE@CAPS.AND.DOTS.hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | well as far as concurrent transactions are concerned (without considering
the 30-40 table inserts) DB2 is the best thing. Read an article on
concurrent transactions databases..
|
Using DB2 doesn't preclude a .NET solution. :)
Jeff |
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Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:30 am Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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I would have thought the same if I was just out uni like
you
| Quote: | -----Original Message-----
Is inserting into 40 tables per transaction really a
business requirement or
just the result of poor database design? I bet they
didn't even start with a
proven industry specific meta model or hire professional
database developers
to do the work. They probably just gave each programmer a
DBO login and let
them do their own thang.
WKidd
"Disillusioned_01" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:uhVYwskmEHA.2020@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Having recently moved on to a BA role (After
studying .Net for a while and
passing couple of ms.net exams )
I have witnessed couple of failed projects in .Net .
Thought I might
share
my sadness
Let me outline the project failed (Brief Discription)
Client: (namewithheld)
Supplier: (namewithheld from India(They are learning))
(But word is that
MS
brains got involved in last minute)
Requirement: Handle 600 - 800 transations /Sec on Peak
Hours
30-40 tables per Transaction / Numerous updates and
inserts/ Little CPU
more
IO due to DB
After shelling out few million dollars the project died
since it
cannot match (not even close) legacy Performance
offered by IBM
Personally I am quite sad at this outcome
Beacause
a. A Initial Development opportunity in .Net lost so
other .net
initiatives
are shelved
b.Missed chance to Kick IBM on butt !
c.>net developers had to shelf their desire to be on a
good organisation
for long
d.Afraid that it sent wrong signals to other IT
managers especially during
friday drinking time ....
And this is not the only project that has been failed
in .Net due to peformance implications
I personally know at least 1 other project .
I can't help wondering how many more are there
I wonder does anybody has been involved in project with
such performance implications
Any comments appreciated
------------------
.
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|
| Back to top |
|
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The Poster Formerly Known
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: .Net project failures |
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| Quote: | I would have thought the same if I was just out uni like
you
|
care to explain how you arrived at this conclusion?
Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3 |
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