|
|
 FAQ
 Search
 Memberlist
 Usergroups
 Register
 Profile
 Private messages
 Log in
|
|
| Author |
Message |
mikester
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: Stop the Maddness |
 |
|
| message unavailable |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
mikester
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Stop the Maddness |
|
|
Alright, I've been studying pretty hard and I have a good handle on
what I need to know. I know I'm not there and work's pushing me hard
this week so I rescheduled it for later in the month.
I just hope I can keep this momentum up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Smythe
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stop the Maddness |
|
|
I think the Oracle makes some good points about the truth of the situation
with certs and experience but at the same time we shouldnt dismiss certs. I
would tell anyone who has the desire to definately get a certificate
whenever possible. It never hurts to have one especially if you have the
experience. And as far as getting your foot in the door, there are network
admins that may need help sometime so even though you may be helpdesk or
something, you might get a chance to help simply because you have studied.
All in all, when it comes time to interview, you need to sell yourself
without relying on the certificates. I think of it as a decoration on the
frosting of the cake. Not something to be waved about , but presented when
asked.
Mark
"The Oracle" <kojaknospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bg0995$jmffq$1@ID-179018.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | I have every sympathy with you DDD.
I also thing the world has gone cert crazy and it is madness. However,
for
people who have been involved in telecoms and networking for twenty years
like myself, it is not quite so bad. We can nail our certs onto a solid
background of experience, both with the technology and with customer
skills.
I think many folks were sold a lie in the late 90's. We were all told
that
IT was the new goldrush and that we should all get involved quickly.
Hell,
even the governments were investing in armed forces people retraining.
However, what happens when the bubble burst? The market readjusts. Only
the fittest survive. Who are the "fittest" in this game? Those with
experience and who can prove they can do the job. I'm afraid all the
MCSE's
and CCNP's in the world cannot conclusively prove this - even CCIE can't.
I
have seen many, many folks proudly waving their new CCNP or MCSE
certificates; many of them were completely useless when given a job to do.
In the real world they couldn't even get three routers talking RIP - I kid
you not. It's one thing to pass a few multi choice tests. It's quite
another to apply that knowledge to a network that's down and with a angry
customer on your shoulder. Believe me, employers have suddenly caught
onto
this fact BIG TIME. Infact, all the certs are applied for now is for
Cisco
partnership reasons - they are almost useless for anything else. If I
interview anyone now (I am an engineer not a manager), all the certs do is
a
filter to see who gets an interview - the certs never get mentioned again.
I'll then give them five routers and give them some simple tasks to do
like
OSPF/RIP redistribution, set up some VLANS and VTP etc. As for Windows
skills, back to back two PC's and ask them to create a few user accounts,
a
DHCP scope and to transfer a few files about. You know what? Despite
them
being MCSE or CCNP less than a quater of candidates can do these simple
tasks !!!! I have even had a CCIE who couldn't do that redistribution!!!
Now, I am all behind the ethos of certifications; however there are so
many
brain dumps out there that cert programs can no longer be used as a
yardstick against which technical abilities can be compared. People will
hate me for saying this but you know it's the truth.
Why should employers pay for training when there is a glut of those skills
(notice I say skills not certs) - on the open market? Likewise, if there
is a glut of such skills they will no longer pay such a premium rate for
them like they did in the 90's. This is unpalatable for us all. However,
we must be realistic and face the truth as it is, not as we would like it
to
be. I am not defending employers here - far from it. What if it were
YOUR
money being spent on that training? What would YOU do if you could get
that
knowledge without incurring that expense?
I'll probably get flamed for this. However, I am only speaking the truth.
I am a certified member of this community too. Boy, I wish the economy
would pick up tomorrow and that Cisco Certified folks like us suddenly
became in mega demand again. It ain't gonna happen anytime soon - lets
get
real. Anyone in training without expereince, expecting a pot of gold when
they hold that cert is going to be very disappointed.
My 2c worth
Steve
"Don DuPuy" <computer.dr@gte.net> wrote in message
news:WhEUa.5606$jB5.5244@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
I'm sick of the Cisco tread mill. I was hired to be trained from scratch
to
be a CCIE, four years ago. After getting my ccna, ccnp, ccda, ccdp and
almost the ccie written, the certs keeps switching around and become
something else. I know you have to update the certs every so often , but
with the economy and such as it is Cisco charging more for the test,
retiring certs at a record pace. I just go notice of renewal on my ccnp,
ccdp, and with ccie getting only 60% of salary they used to get. The
effort
in is not worth the effort paid. also you can't find environments to
train
for the ccie, unless your 4 year degree in something else. Sorry to
sound
so
negative, but I've tried to find a job that would allow me to learn and
train but there isn't any to be found in my state. I've gone as far as
volunteering my service to get hands on, no go. Anyone got any ideas or
suggestion to share. I'm tired of making career changes every
three-fours
years. thanks dudes
DDD
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Smythe
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Stop the Maddness |
|
|
<inquisitiveman2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1d06a7b3.0307281152.c5cc280@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | My MBA in MIS means little to recruiters and employers. They
only look at experience. I am a technical support guy working with
people who only graduated high school and get paid just like them. It
sucks!!
|
It probably is because for some types of technical roles, the college degree
is irrelevant. What is relevant is continuos education, training , and even
re-certing. I would be willing to bet that most hands on technical people do
not have degrees. Degrees are good for management opportunities or for some
companies that simply require it wether or not it is relevant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Stop the Maddness |
|
|
It is irrelevant for almost all technical computer jobs from my
experience. Even many management positions don't require a degree if
you have enough technical work experience. One of my managers does not
have a college degree. I think the days of requiring a college degree
for the IT field are pretty much over. That's why i always tell high
school kids who are planning to major in Computer Science to be a
programmer or network engineer to not waste their money. Unless you
major in something else, it really can be a waste of time when they
can go find a tech job and work their way up!! 4yrs of college time
wasted plus the tuition costs.
"Mark Smythe" <spamster@usenet.org> wrote in message news:<mczVa.986$KX6.58@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>...
| Quote: | inquisitiveman2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1d06a7b3.0307281152.c5cc280@posting.google.com...
My MBA in MIS means little to recruiters and employers. They
only look at experience. I am a technical support guy working with
people who only graduated high school and get paid just like them. It
sucks!!
It probably is because for some types of technical roles, the college degree
is irrelevant. What is relevant is continuos education, training , and even
re-certing. I would be willing to bet that most hands on technical people do
not have degrees. Degrees are good for management opportunities or for some
companies that simply require it wether or not it is relevant. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
I would agree. That;'s why I am currently going for my M.S> in Telecom
and working on my CCNP. I also find it amusing that System
Administrators are now being called "Network Engineers." Please tell
me how configuring workstations is considered engineering a network.
Paallleeeees.
"Some people watch things happen, Some people let things happen, while
others wonder what has happened..."
M.B. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bernie
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:11:03 GMT, "mim" <wpd21@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I know many company's that are now making it a policy that the applicant
have a university degree for network/ programming positions as well as
certs. Why? A couple of reasons, one is they are taking advantage of the
current market downfall, leading up to the second reason which is they get
better workers for less.
I thought at first a degree/Cert wasn't necessary but now I see the
difference. I asked a person without a cert/degree and a person with one
what a definition of a "router" was, these guys are both engineers. The
person with a cert/degree told me the EXACT definition of a router, the
person without one just said "Its just used to share Internet". Of course
there are much more examples I've seen which had convinced me that an
applicant should have a cert or degree. But you can see where I'm coming
from right?
Certification should always have its place, along side with good hands on
experience. Personally I wouldn't go further than getting my CCNA without at
least 6-12months worth of experience. I would actually encourage students to
go to either uni or college otherwise they have no hope even with a couple
years experience for jobs requiring greater responsibilities.
|
I tend to agree with you here. I would also ask inquisitiveman about
the prospect of those same people who skipped college going into
management, and particularly upper management some day. Now some
people prefer to be techs their whole life, but you really don't know
if you are going to be one of those die hard techs until you are later
in life and don't have many options to go back to school. I'd say
that most people don't end up being techs their whole life.
It is never a waste of money, unless you look very, very short term.
Most of those entry level jobs today also require degrees and/or certs
too. So it isn't like skipping college makes you extremely attractive
for even the lowest level IT jobs.
| Quote: | inquisitiveman2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1d06a7b3.0307291515.117625d3@posting.google.com...
It is irrelevant for almost all technical computer jobs from my
experience. Even many management positions don't require a degree if
you have enough technical work experience. One of my managers does not
have a college degree. I think the days of requiring a college degree
for the IT field are pretty much over. That's why i always tell high
school kids who are planning to major in Computer Science to be a
programmer or network engineer to not waste their money. Unless you
major in something else, it really can be a waste of time when they
can go find a tech job and work their way up!! 4yrs of college time
wasted plus the tuition costs.
"Mark Smythe" <spamster@usenet.org> wrote in message
news:<mczVa.986$KX6.58@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>...
inquisitiveman2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1d06a7b3.0307281152.c5cc280@posting.google.com...
My MBA in MIS means little to recruiters and employers. They
only look at experience. I am a technical support guy working with
people who only graduated high school and get paid just like them. It
sucks!!
It probably is because for some types of technical roles, the college
degree
is irrelevant. What is relevant is continuos education, training , and
even
re-certing. I would be willing to bet that most hands on technical
people do
not have degrees. Degrees are good for management opportunities or for
some
companies that simply require it wether or not it is relevant.
|
--Bernie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
Bernie
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
On 30 Jul 2003 18:58:11 -0700, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:
| Quote: | I would agree. That;'s why I am currently going for my M.S> in Telecom
and working on my CCNP. I also find it amusing that System
Administrators are now being called "Network Engineers." Please tell
me how configuring workstations is considered engineering a network.
Paallleeeees.
|
That is probably number one or two on my top ten list of industry pet
peeves. Actually, none of us should bear the title "engineer" anyway,
but that is another story. But I definitely don't get the systems
people being called "network" guys. What...was "systems engineer" not
good enough for them?
| Quote: | "Some people watch things happen, Some people let things happen, while
others wonder what has happened..."
M.B.
|
--Bernie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christian Lemelin
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
Hi guys,
just FYI
1) Probably you need some organization, like in the Quebec and the
Ontario region (Canada) that protects the term "engineer", it's why the
CCIE and MCSE, change the last E for Expert (formely Engineer)!!! In
Canada, you need to be a bachelor in Engineering to add this title to
your name!
2) Regarding SE vs NE
On the vendor side (cisco, Nortel, Foundry, Marconi, and the rest), the
term System Engineer is for the person on the Pre-sales side, pushes the
qualities and the features of the boxes to close deals with the sales
Rep. !!!
And the Network Engineer is the guy on the post-sales side that
troubleshoots the services or the features that the SE sold with the
Rep. !!!
Between those 2 persons, you have the customer with his group of
technicians that order, install and configure those boxes... If the
customer have some problems to implement the solution, the SE will help
them; after that, if the problem is too complex, the Network Engineer
will take the lead to troubleshoot and resolve the problem with th help
of traces (Sniffing)... etc.
Christian L.
Bernie a écrit:
| Quote: | On 30 Jul 2003 18:58:11 -0700, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:
I would agree. That;'s why I am currently going for my M.S> in Telecom
and working on my CCNP. I also find it amusing that System
Administrators are now being called "Network Engineers." Please tell
me how configuring workstations is considered engineering a network.
Paallleeeees.
That is probably number one or two on my top ten list of industry pet
peeves. Actually, none of us should bear the title "engineer" anyway,
but that is another story. But I definitely don't get the systems
people being called "network" guys. What...was "systems engineer" not
good enough for them?
"Some people watch things happen, Some people let things happen, while
others wonder what has happened..."
M.B.
--Bernie |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
inf1n1ty
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
Boy, you are not kidding. "Where do I plug the cable in that looks like a
phone cord but bigger", and these are called network engineers. Kind of a
slap in the face when people like you and I have to troubleshoot an
enterprise network (by network, I mean what happens in the rest of the
equipment that the workstation connects to).
--
inf1n1ty
"Dave" <mrbedell@home.com> wrote in message
news:55930fe9.0307301758.6bae817f@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | I would agree. That;'s why I am currently going for my M.S> in Telecom
and working on my CCNP. I also find it amusing that System
Administrators are now being called "Network Engineers." Please tell
me how configuring workstations is considered engineering a network.
Paallleeeees.
"Some people watch things happen, Some people let things happen, while
others wonder what has happened..."
M.B. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikester
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Stop the Maddness |
|
|
If you are young and don't have a college degree, you're setting
yourself up for a lower salary (more often than not).
I've been a network engineer for a number of years now, I wouldn't
have gotten the job if I didn't have the minimum of an AA. I have that
and a number of Cisco certifications. I notice on almost every
wishlist for a job "BS or higher" and these days companies can get
most of the things on a job wish list. That's just the way the economy
is right now.
If my kid were not going to go to college, I'd be freaking out. I'm
going back to get my BS as it stands now. Also, I've had purely
technical managers and educated managers - it can go either way.
Management quality usually comes down to one thing, the man (or woman)
and his maturity. Immature and insecure are always bad. In my opinion,
those without a college education are setting themselves up for future
insecurity. College is easy, forgive me but you're a dumbass if you
have the opportunity and don't take advantage of it. You're a slacker
if you feel you don't have the opportunity and don't make it for
yourself. I know, I'm that last thing I just mentioned. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
Maybe where you guys live it's different. I know that my city has
technical jobs that are experience prioritized. If you don't have the
experience, a college degree will increase your chances of a help desk
job or not even being considered. However, you can get a help desk
position with an MCSE and no college required. I've noticed this for
5 yrs now even when the economy was doing well. The only thing that
i've seen where a college degree in IT has paid off is when a graduate
gets hired on campus during college recruitment. The graduate will be
offered a Network or Programmer Analyst position with decent salary.
For most of the Computer Science grads, they will have to sweat it out
with others by going to recruiting agencies just like the MCSEs with
no college, or the person with work experience but no college/MCSE.
Christian Lemelin <christian.lemelin@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F288226.9030206@sympatico.ca>...
| Quote: | Hi guys,
just FYI
1) Probably you need some organization, like in the Quebec and the
Ontario region (Canada) that protects the term "engineer", it's why the
CCIE and MCSE, change the last E for Expert (formely Engineer)!!! In
Canada, you need to be a bachelor in Engineering to add this title to
your name!
2) Regarding SE vs NE
On the vendor side (cisco, Nortel, Foundry, Marconi, and the rest), the
term System Engineer is for the person on the Pre-sales side, pushes the
qualities and the features of the boxes to close deals with the sales
Rep. !!!
And the Network Engineer is the guy on the post-sales side that
troubleshoots the services or the features that the SE sold with the
Rep. !!!
Between those 2 persons, you have the customer with his group of
technicians that order, install and configure those boxes... If the
customer have some problems to implement the solution, the SE will help
them; after that, if the problem is too complex, the Network Engineer
will take the lead to troubleshoot and resolve the problem with th help
of traces (Sniffing)... etc.
Christian L.
Bernie a écrit:
On 30 Jul 2003 18:58:11 -0700, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:
I would agree. That;'s why I am currently going for my M.S> in Telecom
and working on my CCNP. I also find it amusing that System
Administrators are now being called "Network Engineers." Please tell
me how configuring workstations is considered engineering a network.
Paallleeeees.
That is probably number one or two on my top ten list of industry pet
peeves. Actually, none of us should bear the title "engineer" anyway,
but that is another story. But I definitely don't get the systems
people being called "network" guys. What...was "systems engineer" not
good enough for them?
"Some people watch things happen, Some people let things happen, while
others wonder what has happened..."
M.B.
--Bernie |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
To me, if you're working and up to date with the technology, there is
really no need to take exams to prove yourself. The bottom line is job
performance. Now, if you want to get into an area that is unknown or
new(like going from NT Admin to Cisco Network Analyst), i do think
getting a CCNA is worth pursuing. I wouldn't continue studying for
CCNP unless i was offered a position applying what i learned in my
CCNA study.
"mim" <wpd21@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<HtPVa.777$bo1.113@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
| Quote: | I know many company's that are now making it a policy that the applicant
have a university degree for network/ programming positions as well as
certs. Why? A couple of reasons, one is they are taking advantage of the
current market downfall, leading up to the second reason which is they get
better workers for less.
I thought at first a degree/Cert wasn't necessary but now I see the
difference. I asked a person without a cert/degree and a person with one
what a definition of a "router" was, these guys are both engineers. The
person with a cert/degree told me the EXACT definition of a router, the
person without one just said "Its just used to share Internet". Of course
there are much more examples I've seen which had convinced me that an
applicant should have a cert or degree. But you can see where I'm coming
from right?
Certification should always have its place, along side with good hands on
experience. Personally I wouldn't go further than getting my CCNA without at
least 6-12months worth of experience. I would actually encourage students to
go to either uni or college otherwise they have no hope even with a couple
years experience for jobs requiring greater responsibilities.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bernie
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
On 30 Jul 2003 23:03:23 -0700, inquisitiveman2002@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | Maybe where you guys live it's different. I know that my city has
technical jobs that are experience prioritized. If you don't have the
experience, a college degree will increase your chances of a help desk
job or not even being considered. However, you can get a help desk
position with an MCSE and no college required. I've noticed this for
5 yrs now even when the economy was doing well.
|
There is a difference between what a job add asks for and what really
goes into filling the job. For example, if you have two people in
front of you without any experience and both seem relatively equal,
one has a degree the other does not, who do you pick? Now maybe your
minimum bar has been exceded by both, but you are still going to
choose the better one to fill the position.
Also, consider the other case that many companies have a strict
requirement on degrees regardless of your experience level. I never
even got to the point of applying for a job at Price Waterhouse
because I never got past the degree requirement (I have a degree
today, but didn't back then). I had experience. I even had the
experience they needed. But it didn't matter.
So in terms of it being worth it, would you rather have more jobs you
are "qualified" for that you can apply for, or less? If you choose
not to get a degree, you will *always* have fewer jobs available to
you. Now if you want to stay on the hepdesk forever, there will
probably be no shortage of jobs available. But most people want to
advance and go to other companies at some point. Limiting your
choices is always a bad thing. Not having a credential that another
applicant has when competing for that other job is also a bad thing.
| Quote: | The only thing that
i've seen where a college degree in IT has paid off is when a graduate
gets hired on campus during college recruitment. The graduate will be
offered a Network or Programmer Analyst position with decent salary.
For most of the Computer Science grads, they will have to sweat it out
with others by going to recruiting agencies just like the MCSEs with
no college, or the person with work experience but no college/MCSE.
|
What if you later want to become the IT manager, or CTO or something
like that? Will your company seriously consider you when the next
applicant has not only a degree but an MBA too?
There is more that goes into answering this question that trying to
figure out the requirements to go work at a help desk. You have to
look longer term than that. That is exactly why I chose to go back
and finish my degree.
| Quote: | Christian Lemelin <christian.lemelin@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F288226.9030206@sympatico.ca>...
Hi guys,
just FYI
1) Probably you need some organization, like in the Quebec and the
Ontario region (Canada) that protects the term "engineer", it's why the
CCIE and MCSE, change the last E for Expert (formely Engineer)!!! In
Canada, you need to be a bachelor in Engineering to add this title to
your name!
2) Regarding SE vs NE
On the vendor side (cisco, Nortel, Foundry, Marconi, and the rest), the
term System Engineer is for the person on the Pre-sales side, pushes the
qualities and the features of the boxes to close deals with the sales
Rep. !!!
And the Network Engineer is the guy on the post-sales side that
troubleshoots the services or the features that the SE sold with the
Rep. !!!
Between those 2 persons, you have the customer with his group of
technicians that order, install and configure those boxes... If the
customer have some problems to implement the solution, the SE will help
them; after that, if the problem is too complex, the Network Engineer
will take the lead to troubleshoot and resolve the problem with th help
of traces (Sniffing)... etc.
Christian L.
Bernie a écrit:
On 30 Jul 2003 18:58:11 -0700, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:
I would agree. That;'s why I am currently going for my M.S> in Telecom
and working on my CCNP. I also find it amusing that System
Administrators are now being called "Network Engineers." Please tell
me how configuring workstations is considered engineering a network.
Paallleeeees.
That is probably number one or two on my top ten list of industry pet
peeves. Actually, none of us should bear the title "engineer" anyway,
but that is another story. But I definitely don't get the systems
people being called "network" guys. What...was "systems engineer" not
good enough for them?
"Some people watch things happen, Some people let things happen, while
others wonder what has happened..."
M.B.
--Bernie
|
--Bernie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
buckwheat
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Things are changing |
|
|
| Quote: | There is a difference between what a job add asks for and what really
goes into filling the job. For example, if you have two people in
front of you without any experience and both seem relatively equal,
one has a degree the other does not, who do you pick? Now maybe your
minimum bar has been exceded by both, but you are still going to
choose the better one to fill the position.
Bernie <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message news:<5e6iivs6qpvu8p1nhpfk10k49ufna301uv@4ax.com>...
On 30 Jul 2003 23:03:23 -0700, inquisitiveman2002@yahoo.com wrote:
There is a difference between what a job add asks for and what really
goes into filling the job. For example, if you have two people in
front of you without any experience and both seem relatively equal,
one has a degree the other does not, who do you pick? Now maybe your
minimum bar has been exceded by both, but you are still going to
choose the better one to fill the position.
|
Get real people. If you're in Atlanta, there wouldn't be two people
in front of you, there would be more like 300. Employeers are
laughing all the way to the bank, keeping their investors and
bean-counters happy. The few incompetents that are nervously "just
keeping their jobs" are doing the interviewing - caring or knowing
less about the positions aholes in management instruct them to fill.
Read: CEO's wife's brother who just flunked out of college.
That's ok. One day this will all reverse, and all of the sincere
knowledgable people that have been jerked around for their amusement
are now going to be hell bent on revenge. Go ahead, Verizon,
Lockheed, ATT, IBM. Have your little moment. When this loosens up,
you're the first stop on the incompetent meat processor... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
