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| Author |
Message |
John Agosta
Guest
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:09 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
 |
|
"Bernie" <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message
news:o3ljjvkqc5qcmkftsjps5jfs4f3jlrsgjm@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:59:44 +0200, "Ceyko" <spam@spam.com> wrote:
Bernie,
Your points are very well made and I would like to elaborate more.
However,
I have to attend a meeting that will go late into the night with lots of
beers.  I am also interested to see who is defending what. My point
is,
do you have a degree and therefore are defending that aspect in the
conversation?
Fair question.
|
Nice post, Bernie. Very nice.
-ja |
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Robert Chen
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
This is true of any industry. For the most part paper certs are not much
worth. But the thing that makes Cisco different is that if you want to be
the best of the best, referring to CCIE's, you have to take a practical.
You can't pass the practical with out at least having some idea of what you
are doing. In my option, that's what sets CCIE's apart from CCNA, CCNP,
MCSE, and etc.... Although alot of people can read and pass the written
test, not everyone can pass the lab. Besides, Cisco takes alot of pride in
their certs. Incase you haven't notice or remember, if you fail a test and
then retake that same test, it gets harder. It tests you more on the parts
that you failed from the time before. There is no such thing as a perfect
solution. Certs are, sorta kinda, like degrees. It builds a foundation for
a person. This so that when some one talks about how to subnet or how to
configure a router/switch, they atleast have some idea of what you are
taking about. They wouldn't come back with a blank look at you. Also, it
doesn't matter how much experience you have, if you can't remember how to
setup/fix it then you wouldn't be able to. I have come across too many
people who have passed their CCNA/CCNP and can't remember ***. They just
remember the material long enough to pass the test. Those are the people
that the world would have to be care of. And those are the people that give
alot of these certs a bad name. But I think that they would give degrees a
bad name too.
"radioactiveman" <radioactivem@springfield.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.08.08.22.06.01.330919@springfield.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack ***
some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
jack *** either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
guess its all different.
|
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Bernie
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:29:52 -0400, "Robert Chen" <rtc0@erols.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | This is true of any industry.
|
Any industry that uses Sylvan multiple choice exams, that is... There
are industries with certs that don't have these problems, but these
industries aren't using computerized multiple guess exams either. For
example, actuaries have a cert process that uses paper exams, and
their program that is far stronger and rigorous than Cisco's could
ever hope to be.
| Quote: | For the most part paper certs are not much
worth. But the thing that makes Cisco different is that if you want to be
the best of the best, referring to CCIE's, you have to take a practical.
You can't pass the practical with out at least having some idea of what you
are doing. In my option, that's what sets CCIE's apart from CCNA, CCNP,
MCSE, and etc.... Although alot of people can read and pass the written
test, not everyone can pass the lab. Besides, Cisco takes alot of pride in
their certs. Incase you haven't notice or remember, if you fail a test and
then retake that same test, it gets harder. It tests you more on the parts
that you failed from the time before.
|
That is not true, just another urban myth. Exams are
monolithic--there is an A exam, a B exam, and possibly a C or D just
depending on how many complete exams are developed for a particular
cert. There is no "pool of questions"; rather there is a small pool
of *complete exams*. When you take an exam, you get exam B for
example. If you fail and retake it again, you will get exam A next
time. Exam A may happen to focus on the areas you are weak, or it may
focus on areas that you are strong...that is just luck of the draw,
not a purposeful exam made to fit *you*. Exam A's contents were fixed
long before you took it.
I have developed a Sylvan-Prometric cert exam before, so I know about
the back end of certifications. JA has been involved in Cisco exam
development too, and he also has said the same thing as I concerning
the small pool of *exams* (A, B, C) and that there isn't some AI
engine specially creating your exam, based on a huge pool of questions
and your past failures..
| Quote: | There is no such thing as a perfect
solution. Certs are, sorta kinda, like degrees. It builds a foundation for
a person. This so that when some one talks about how to subnet or how to
configure a router/switch, they atleast have some idea of what you are
taking about. They wouldn't come back with a blank look at you. Also, it
doesn't matter how much experience you have, if you can't remember how to
setup/fix it then you wouldn't be able to. I have come across too many
people who have passed their CCNA/CCNP and can't remember ***. They just
remember the material long enough to pass the test. Those are the people
that the world would have to be care of. And those are the people that give
alot of these certs a bad name. But I think that they would give degrees a
bad name too.
"radioactiveman" <radioactivem@springfield.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.08.08.22.06.01.330919@springfield.com...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack ***
some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
jack *** either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
guess its all different.
|
--Bernie |
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CybrSage
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:24 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
Nah, not a tender spot. I just live and work near a state capitol.
Certifications are required by the state to work at different levels.
Someone without certification will have to work at a much lower level than
someone with. Does not matter if they helped design ARPANet, no cert, no
high level jobs.
Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
learning. This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
name.
:-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and using
them. But the shoe definately fit...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:TbVZa.248473$R92.21377@news2.central.cox.net...
| Quote: | I must have hit a tender spot with you. I am sorry.
I can tell you that 99% of the people that decide to get into computers
their Senior year in high school, will never be hired by myself or my firm
or the company I currently am employed by today. Anyone can pick up a book
and read. Anyone can take a test and pass that test if they apply
themselves. Having the market flooded with certified idiots with no past
or
present experience is what gives the industry's certification programs a
bad
name.
I have nothing bad to say about Cisco at all however, the fly by night
companies that offer Cisco classes/certification tests etc and market
their
business such as a business like ITT Technical Institute offers ("Looking
to
change your life? Looking for a new career?") should be shut down and
expelled from the universe.
The more people that learn about this industry at a younger age tend to
NOT
get certifications because they know that they do not need them to
succeed.
I do agree that a college education is a must, but don't go out and get a
degree in MIS if you have the knowledge already. You would be better off
without the degree in MIS and instead with a degree in another field for
future use etc.
Again, this is my opinion. I know there are people that disagree and
consider that your opinion. I am not looking to be flamed. I am simply
replying to my method of hiring etc.
my"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DbGcnYZSR7REFquiXTWJjg@comcast.com...
You obviously do not have a real clue about reality.
Say both you and I have equal skills and experiance, but I have my cisco
certs and you do not. Who gets the job?
Exactly, the owner's son. Wait, I mean me, with guy with the
certifications, not you, the guy who is too good to get certifications...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience
you
get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the
industry
don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
My ex-roommate didn't know *** about Cisco... paid some fly by night
school
$1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed
on
the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why
ftp
wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a
serial
prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the
router
via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and
tftping
them over... but ***... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack ***.
Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what
your
resume' claims that you know.
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
|
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CybrSage
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:25 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
<sarcasm>
99% Wow. Only 75% of dentists can agree that sugar free gum is better for
your teeth. I am impressed!
</sarcasm>
"Bryce" <bryce@twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:n76_a.264293$BA.61344658@twister.columbus.rr.com...
| Quote: | Everyone,
From my consulting experience and dealing with hundreds of companies,
formal
education is much more highly valued over certification by 99% of
companies
out there. The guy with a Master of Science in Computer Science or
Information Tech (or a PhD) will be seen as more educated and mature in
understanding than someone with no degree and a bunch of "vendor specific"
certifications. Why?
Formal education is valued at the extremely high levels of most
corporations
by the executives that run the companies. They don't consider you to be
"cultured" and mature unless your highly educated in a formal manner.
That's why there is such a high value placed on formal education - it
moves
you up the "social ladder" in general; places you into a different "cast"
if
you will.
Moreover, the formal education proves a lateral and comprehensive
understanding of a particular field. Certs are more specific in nature.
Certs lack this "lateral" or all-encompassing type of knowledge
recognition.
Someone with a graduate degree in IT is seen as being more mature and
comprehensive in their knowledge than someone with no degree and certs
alone. This is what I've learned from dealing face-to-face with
"Corporate
America."
My 2 cents.
Yours,
Bryce
"John Agosta" <j_agosta@wideopenwest.kom> wrote in message
news:E2mdnVrMOc0wVKiiU-KYvw@wideopenwest.com...
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other
BIG
companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
I think spending time wondering if Cisco will 'fold'
is about as silly as putting money on the Cubs to win the World Series.
It ain't gonna happen.
;-)
-ja
|
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Yen
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:21 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | :-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and using
them. But the shoe definately fit...
|
So you can't come up with an original thought and you can't spell. Maybe
some college would help. |
|
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Bernie
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:23 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:24:13 -0400, "CybrSage"
<CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Nah, not a tender spot. I just live and work near a state capitol.
Certifications are required by the state to work at different levels.
Someone without certification will have to work at a much lower level than
someone with. Does not matter if they helped design ARPANet, no cert, no
high level jobs.
Too many places think a college degree means people know something.
|
Unless you propose to be a mind reader, you don't know exactly what
they think it means. Just because a company values a college degree
does not in any way mean they think you know the practicals of various
IT jobs. I will tell you a couple of things a degree means. It means
a person is *more likely* able to write complete sentences than
someone who doesn't have a degree. It means they are more likely able
to communicate verbally in a way that is effective. It means they
probably have a little more familiarity with history. It also means
they probably understand the scientific method a little better (which
translates directly into the ability to troubleshoot effectively BTW).
No guarantees mind you, just a higher likelihood; and hiring is all
about likelihood, not about certainty. So do those things have
anything directly to do with computers? No, not really. But I don't
know of many career fields where the ability to write/speak and sound
just remotely intelligent via written/spoken word doesn't have *some*
impact on business. For example, if I take my car to get a repair
estimate, and the mechanic sounds like a complete hick fresh from the
sticks, do I conclude that he must be a great mechanic? It may not be
a *fair* judgement, but probably not. Now maybe I end up taking my
car down the street somewhere else because I feel more comfortable
with the [assumed] ability of another mechanic that doesn't sound like
Goober.
As for reasons that some companies might want a degree:
1) Maybe they want someone with the real possibility of upward
mobility. It isn't exactly fair to hire someone knowing before hand
that they have little possibility to advance into other higher
positions (e.g. management).
2) Maybe they feel that a CS degree which teaches much more
fundamental things, like OS architecture, is better equipped in the
long run for more advanced concepts. Maybe they feel that the CS
experience in programming gives a person insight into how software
functions at a deeper level than another person.
3) Maybe they feel like someone who has lived in a 10x15 cell with
another person for several years is more likely to have remotely
decent people skills, such that they can get along in a team
environment.
5) Maybe they feel that a well rounded education makes a person more
likely to fit within a diverse corporate environment.
6) Maybe they feel that a system by which people are graded against
each other is more effective when attempting to pick out the bright
people. For example, you could pick those people that graduated with
certain levels of honors, with cert exams, you just know the person
passed.
| Quote: | Most
people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
learning.
|
If you say that college is just book learning, then you obviously
haven't been to college, or maybe you enrolled but skipped class most
of the time. Sure, some classes force you to just memorize and
regurgitate. But far more than not force you to apply your learning
in new and unique ways in order to better assimilate it. This also
builds critical thinking skills, something that society as a whole is
sorely lacking in. Is a CS class where you have to program an
application just "book learning"? Is a math class where you spend the
semester proving theorems (on your own, not from a book) just "book
learning"? Is a class on rhetoric where you spend 90% of the time
writing papers and essays just "book learning"? Now maybe those don't
directly apply to "fixin 'puters" but they are hardly just "book
learning" courses. At least college classes force you to apply what
you are learning, cert exams just test your ability to remember,
*ESPECIALLY* if you use something like Test King.
| Quote: | This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
name.
|
I don't know that college has gotten a bad name as a whole. If I hire
someone that has little experience, but they pick up the job quickly
and have an aptitude for the work, then I don't rue the decision to
hire them, degree or not. I would if that person just floundered
around and didn't improve much, degree or not.
So the question is which category has a lower percentage of lemons,
not which categories have people without experience. The companies
have spoken on this issue. They didn't just spin the wheel of fortune
to come up with these hiring criteria...they do it because it works
for them.
| Quote: | :-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and using
them. But the shoe definately fit...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:TbVZa.248473$R92.21377@news2.central.cox.net...
I must have hit a tender spot with you. I am sorry.
I can tell you that 99% of the people that decide to get into computers
their Senior year in high school, will never be hired by myself or my firm
or the company I currently am employed by today. Anyone can pick up a book
and read. Anyone can take a test and pass that test if they apply
themselves. Having the market flooded with certified idiots with no past
or
present experience is what gives the industry's certification programs a
bad
name.
I have nothing bad to say about Cisco at all however, the fly by night
companies that offer Cisco classes/certification tests etc and market
their
business such as a business like ITT Technical Institute offers ("Looking
to
change your life? Looking for a new career?") should be shut down and
expelled from the universe.
The more people that learn about this industry at a younger age tend to
NOT
get certifications because they know that they do not need them to
succeed.
I do agree that a college education is a must, but don't go out and get a
degree in MIS if you have the knowledge already. You would be better off
without the degree in MIS and instead with a degree in another field for
future use etc.
Again, this is my opinion. I know there are people that disagree and
consider that your opinion. I am not looking to be flamed. I am simply
replying to my method of hiring etc.
my"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DbGcnYZSR7REFquiXTWJjg@comcast.com...
You obviously do not have a real clue about reality.
Say both you and I have equal skills and experiance, but I have my cisco
certs and you do not. Who gets the job?
Exactly, the owner's son. Wait, I mean me, with guy with the
certifications, not you, the guy who is too good to get certifications...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience
you
get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the
industry
don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
My ex-roommate didn't know *** about Cisco... paid some fly by night
school
$1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed
on
the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why
ftp
wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a
serial
prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the
router
via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and
tftping
them over... but ***... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack ***.
Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what
your
resume' claims that you know.
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
|
--Bernie |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Hansang Bae
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:18 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
In article <E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast.com>, CybrSage13@Hotmail.com
says...
[snip]
| Quote: | Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
learning. This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
name.
|
I don't know that it gives any college a bad name. Every program has
its share of bad apples. The difference between someone who went
through compsci course - for example - is that they understand the
underlying principles involved in networking. Assuming they
concentrated on networking and not software development or hardware
design.
As Rich Seifert once said, engineers typically know one more level of
abstraction than a "techie."
So while some "tech" may know to type "ip classless" (as an example)
they may not know how and why this affects packet forwarding.
--
hsb
"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
********************************************************************
Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
******************************************************************** |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Hansang Bae
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:23 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
In article <E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast.com>, CybrSage13@Hotmail.com
says...
| Quote: | Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
learning.
[snip] |
Oops, I forgot to add something. A prof of mine (Stregths of Materials,
in case anyone is curious) once told me that going to college is akin to
going around collecting tools for your toolbox (aka your noggin)
Someday, you'll land a job where they will teach you how to use those
tools, but they won't give you the tools. They expect you to have the
tools and know how to use them minimally. That's what going to college
is like ...for CS and engineering disciplines more so than A&S.
--
hsb
"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
********************************************************************
Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
******************************************************************** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bernie
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:52 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:18:41 GMT, Hansang Bae <uonr@alp.ee.pbz> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast.com>, CybrSage13@Hotmail.com
says...
[snip]
Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
learning. This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
name.
I don't know that it gives any college a bad name. Every program has
its share of bad apples. The difference between someone who went
through compsci course - for example - is that they understand the
underlying principles involved in networking. Assuming they
concentrated on networking and not software development or hardware
design.
|
It is interesting to read some of the wealth of invention that has
been spurred by masters and doctorate theses. A lot of things in
networking were developed by those students with only "book learning".
But they probably never touched a Cisco router so what do they know
about anything....forget the fact that Cisco followed their paper to
develop a new feature...
I found a lot of really neat papers from the world of academia back
when I was heavily researching IP multicast.
| Quote: | As Rich Seifert once said, engineers typically know one more level of
abstraction than a "techie."
So while some "tech" may know to type "ip classless" (as an example)
they may not know how and why this affects packet forwarding.
|
--Bernie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CybrSage
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
|
|
Wow, what a nice a "I'm rubber, your glue..." statement. For being someone
whose name means "worth less than a US penny" you sure needed to give your
two cents worth...
"Yen" <nomail@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bhs54i$2h7ks$1@ID-201446.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast.com...
:-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and
using
them. But the shoe definately fit...
So you can't come up with an original thought and you can't spell. Maybe
some college would help.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
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CybrSage
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
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And as such you would hire them to handle your routers? Absolutely not.
Hire them to design the next set of routers? Definately. But this who
discussion is based on hiring people to actually do work on your systems,
not design the next set of systems.
"Bernie" <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message
news:cua3kvo33m04auq8ujsr31h0g08nsfhpsu@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:18:41 GMT, Hansang Bae <uonr@alp.ee.pbz> wrote:
It is interesting to read some of the wealth of invention that has
been spurred by masters and doctorate theses. A lot of things in
networking were developed by those students with only "book learning".
But they probably never touched a Cisco router so what do they know
about anything....forget the fact that Cisco followed their paper to
develop a new feature...
I found a lot of really neat papers from the world of academia back
when I was heavily researching IP multicast.
--Bernie |
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Bernie
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
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On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 07:25:53 -0400, "CybrSage"
<CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | And as such you would hire them to handle your routers? Absolutely not.
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Yes there is some truth in what you say. But I would be willing to
bet the reason I wouldn't hire them is not the same reason you would
give. I assume you mean to say that such a person cannot handle the
job because they haven't spent much console time on routers. My
reason would not be that at all. Someone with that depth of knowledge
can surely figure out how to configure routers...that part is just not
that difficult. I may not hire that person because I might be afraid
that the position would turn out to be beneath them in the long run.
Maybe the first few months would be a challenge as they ramp up on the
nuances of my particular gear, but once that hurdle is passed there
isn't much to keep them occupied.
There are also a lot of other caveats that go along with such a
question. If I am running a 24/7 shop, for example, I am less
tolerant to someone ramping up while on the job, because I can't take
the risk of a newbie error (and we all have had them!) bringing down
anything. If I am not running a 24/7 shop or if I have a network
team, then someone that I expect to ramp up very quickly might fit in
very nicely. But given my thoughts above, that job might ultimately
be beneath someone that designed a protocol as part of a doctoral
thesis, and so I might not offer the job based on that reason, but not
because they don't have massive amounts of console time.
| Quote: | Hire them to design the next set of routers? Definately. But this who
discussion is based on hiring people to actually do work on your systems,
not design the next set of systems.
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Ok, but you seemed to take the discussion on simple degree bashing
track, so I responded to what I thought you were saying.
| Quote: | "Bernie" <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message
news:cua3kvo33m04auq8ujsr31h0g08nsfhpsu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:18:41 GMT, Hansang Bae <uonr@alp.ee.pbz> wrote:
It is interesting to read some of the wealth of invention that has
been spurred by masters and doctorate theses. A lot of things in
networking were developed by those students with only "book learning".
But they probably never touched a Cisco router so what do they know
about anything....forget the fact that Cisco followed their paper to
develop a new feature...
I found a lot of really neat papers from the world of academia back
when I was heavily researching IP multicast.
--Bernie
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--Bernie |
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CybrSage
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
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I have Definately made my fair share of errors along the way! :-)
Unfortunately, Cisco support seems to be slipping over time. Either that,
or my problems are just getting more complex. I think a little of both.
I am a bit more mellow now. Drinking does that to me. I was not degree
bashing as much as I was non-degree supporting. Er, certification
supporting...something like that.
I do have a degree myself. I did self study and earned my Associates in
Nuclear Engineering Technologies. I took the CLEP exams, basically earning
the credits for a class by taking the final exam without ever taking the
class. Nuclear Sciences fascinate me, so I studied them. Then determined I
should just go ahead and get that degree, does not hurt. Of course, in the
US, Nuclear Power is a dead industry.
It was good tossing back and forth with you, you are a well spoken
individual!
CybrSage |
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M
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS |
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| Very nice, old topic |
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