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TwoBearCatz Guest	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: What to do about piracy and the competition? Not sure if this is the best group for this question but I've noticed many posts regarding computer service companies in this group. As an owner of a local computer service company of several years I've run into a difficult problem with regard to one or two companies in town that choose to sell computers with pirated software (including XP) and pirated software in general. As some of you know, these types of outfits are pretty shady and hard to track down. They sell things without invoices and/or the customers conveniently "lose" their invoices after purchase. Here are the major problems with this: 1) It's illegal 2) It hurts my business. These outfits can and do sell computers and services for less than legit businesses do for obvious reasons. Perhaps the worst part is not simply the competition but for the fact we get many of their "rejects". Customers that have purchased pirated software/services/computers say they "didn't know" it was pirated. They want re-images and other services without of course paying for said software because they think they "already bought it". This causes ALL KINDS of frustration, headache, and believe it or not bad debt! 3) Working on computers with pirated software potentially puts me and my company at risk. I am well aware of the SPA, but I'm not sure they really investigate such problems? I've heard the SPA has some strict guidelines as to what they will investigate and what they won't. If the SPA won't do it, surely someone else will? Can a person really get away with selling tens of thousands of dollars of pirated software locally? TIA for any tips on what I can do about this problem.
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Steven L Umbach Guest	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? You can report to Microsoft directly via email or phone call and to other organizations as shown in the links below. You may need to ask your customers that have been burned to help and have them report also or help build your case. Good luck. Steve http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/Reporting.mspx So what happens when you report software piracy? a.. Your lead is received by a team of individuals who respond. b.. Education - A letter may be sent to the company stating that they have been reported for allegedly distributing Microsoft software in an unauthorized manner. c.. A secret shopper may make a purchase from the company that was reported. d.. The individual who submitted the lead may be contacted for further information/evidence (invoice, software). e.. If evidence regarding the company is gathered, a cease and desist letter may be sent. f.. The evidence developed may be used in a legal proceeding against the reported company. https://reporting.bsa.org/usa/home.aspx "TwoBearCatz" <twobearcatz@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1154445313.837726.11900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... Quote: Not sure if this is the best group for this question but I've noticed many posts regarding computer service companies in this group. As an owner of a local computer service company of several years I've run into a difficult problem with regard to one or two companies in town that choose to sell computers with pirated software (including XP) and pirated software in general. As some of you know, these types of outfits are pretty shady and hard to track down. They sell things without invoices and/or the customers conveniently "lose" their invoices after purchase. Here are the major problems with this: 1) It's illegal 2) It hurts my business. These outfits can and do sell computers and services for less than legit businesses do for obvious reasons. Perhaps the worst part is not simply the competition but for the fact we get many of their "rejects". Customers that have purchased pirated software/services/computers say they "didn't know" it was pirated. They want re-images and other services without of course paying for said software because they think they "already bought it". This causes ALL KINDS of frustration, headache, and believe it or not bad debt! 3) Working on computers with pirated software potentially puts me and my company at risk. I am well aware of the SPA, but I'm not sure they really investigate such problems? I've heard the SPA has some strict guidelines as to what they will investigate and what they won't. If the SPA won't do it, surely someone else will? Can a person really get away with selling tens of thousands of dollars of pirated software locally? TIA for any tips on what I can do about this problem.
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Barry Watzman Guest	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:18 am    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? Report it to Microsoft, they are pretty aggressive about investigating and shutting down these guys, they are bringing formal legal action against hundreds of such operations per year. TwoBearCatz wrote: Quote: Not sure if this is the best group for this question but I've noticed many posts regarding computer service companies in this group. As an owner of a local computer service company of several years I've run into a difficult problem with regard to one or two companies in town that choose to sell computers with pirated software (including XP) and pirated software in general. As some of you know, these types of outfits are pretty shady and hard to track down. They sell things without invoices and/or the customers conveniently "lose" their invoices after purchase. Here are the major problems with this: 1) It's illegal 2) It hurts my business. These outfits can and do sell computers and services for less than legit businesses do for obvious reasons. Perhaps the worst part is not simply the competition but for the fact we get many of their "rejects". Customers that have purchased pirated software/services/computers say they "didn't know" it was pirated. They want re-images and other services without of course paying for said software because they think they "already bought it". This causes ALL KINDS of frustration, headache, and believe it or not bad debt! 3) Working on computers with pirated software potentially puts me and my company at risk. I am well aware of the SPA, but I'm not sure they really investigate such problems? I've heard the SPA has some strict guidelines as to what they will investigate and what they won't. If the SPA won't do it, surely someone else will? Can a person really get away with selling tens of thousands of dollars of pirated software locally? TIA for any tips on what I can do about this problem.
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Milan Guest	Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? make it part of your advertising to alert people to this, and to make clear you are doing things the right way. if you explain it without jargon and simply, you will get lots of customers who hate these kind of shady dealers. "TwoBearCatz" <twobearcatz@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1154445313.837726.11900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... Quote: Not sure if this is the best group for this question but I've noticed many posts regarding computer service companies in this group. As an owner of a local computer service company of several years I've run into a difficult problem with regard to one or two companies in town that choose to sell computers with pirated software (including XP) and pirated software in general. As some of you know, these types of outfits are pretty shady and hard to track down. They sell things without invoices and/or the customers conveniently "lose" their invoices after purchase. Here are the major problems with this: 1) It's illegal 2) It hurts my business. These outfits can and do sell computers and services for less than legit businesses do for obvious reasons. Perhaps the worst part is not simply the competition but for the fact we get many of their "rejects". Customers that have purchased pirated software/services/computers say they "didn't know" it was pirated. They want re-images and other services without of course paying for said software because they think they "already bought it". This causes ALL KINDS of frustration, headache, and believe it or not bad debt! 3) Working on computers with pirated software potentially puts me and my company at risk. I am well aware of the SPA, but I'm not sure they really investigate such problems? I've heard the SPA has some strict guidelines as to what they will investigate and what they won't. If the SPA won't do it, surely someone else will? Can a person really get away with selling tens of thousands of dollars of pirated software locally? TIA for any tips on what I can do about this problem.
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SBFan2000 Guest	Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? You better make 100% sure that they are using pirate software. If thier not and you "make it part of your advertising" that your competitor is using pirate software and in fact they aren't, your got yourself into a lawsuit. If they are then certainly tell people because it illegal and they should pay for breaking the law. But be 100% sure before you advertise that! "Milan" <thespamskitby@montypython.loc> wrote in message news:44d26374@clear.net.nz... Quote: make it part of your advertising to alert people to this, and to make clear you are doing things the right way. if you explain it without jargon and simply, you will get lots of customers who hate these kind of shady dealers. "TwoBearCatz" <twobearcatz@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1154445313.837726.11900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... Not sure if this is the best group for this question but I've noticed many posts regarding computer service companies in this group. As an owner of a local computer service company of several years I've run into a difficult problem with regard to one or two companies in town that choose to sell computers with pirated software (including XP) and pirated software in general. As some of you know, these types of outfits are pretty shady and hard to track down. They sell things without invoices and/or the customers conveniently "lose" their invoices after purchase. Here are the major problems with this: 1) It's illegal 2) It hurts my business. These outfits can and do sell computers and services for less than legit businesses do for obvious reasons. Perhaps the worst part is not simply the competition but for the fact we get many of their "rejects". Customers that have purchased pirated software/services/computers say they "didn't know" it was pirated. They want re-images and other services without of course paying for said software because they think they "already bought it". This causes ALL KINDS of frustration, headache, and believe it or not bad debt! 3) Working on computers with pirated software potentially puts me and my company at risk. I am well aware of the SPA, but I'm not sure they really investigate such problems? I've heard the SPA has some strict guidelines as to what they will investigate and what they won't. If the SPA won't do it, surely someone else will? Can a person really get away with selling tens of thousands of dollars of pirated software locally? TIA for any tips on what I can do about this problem.
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smackedass Guest	Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? "SBFan2000" <glenn@glenngriffithNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:7gxAg.9463$oz.4533@trnddc07... Quote: You better make 100% sure that they are using pirate software. If thier not and you "make it part of your advertising" that your competitor is using pirate software and in fact they aren't, your got yourself into a lawsuit. If they are then certainly tell people because it illegal and they should pay for breaking the law. But be 100% sure before you advertise that! In fact, I'd hire a lawyer on if you want to disparage other local "uncommitted" salespeople as part of your marketing campaign. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the world we live in. smackedass
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JohnO Guest	Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? Milan wrote: Quote: make it part of your advertising to alert people to this, and to make clear you are doing things the right way. if you explain it without jargon and simply, you will get lots of customers who hate these kind of shady dealers. Who do you think buys pirated DVDs? The same people looking for a bargain on PCs. They don't care, and many of them probably like "sticking it to Bill." That's unfortunate, but these days a lot of people have no ethics. Don't advertise this. It's bad marketing strategy, as well as a great way to find yourself under a microscope. Even bringing it up to your prospective customers is bad. If they ask why your systems cost more, however, make it clear: when you buy from me you get a *genuine Win XP install disk* and not a bootleg copy. And leave it right there. You can advertise the fact that you provide genuine Win XP install CDs, but don't EVER publish anything that says your competitor is a pirate. Do your competitor's systems pass the WGA checks? If not, your job is easy...his customers cannot get updates and the extra tools. If they DO pass, then you need to contact MS directly. There used to be a dedicated email address for that, piracy@microsoft or something like that. -John O
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J. Clarke Guest	Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? smackedass wrote: Quote: "SBFan2000" <glenn@glenngriffithNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:7gxAg.9463$oz.4533@trnddc07... You better make 100% sure that they are using pirate software. If thier not and you "make it part of your advertising" that your competitor is using pirate software and in fact they aren't, your got yourself into a lawsuit. If they are then certainly tell people because it illegal and they should pay for breaking the law. But be 100% sure before you advertise that! In fact, I'd hire a lawyer on if you want to disparage other local "uncommitted" salespeople as part of your marketing campaign. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the world we live in. I don't see anything wrong with making the issue of piracy and the risks part of one's advertising as long as one does not claim that any particular competitor is engaging in this practice. Note that just "not naming names" is not necessarily good enough protection if there is enough information provided that a "reasonable man" could identify the competitor. Even worse, an ad that says "don't buy from Joe's Whorehouse and Computer Store because Joe sells pirated software" is likely to send a lot more business to Joe than it is to you. Salesmanship 101--don't bash the competition. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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Thumper Guest	Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? On 4 Aug 2006 05:18:34 -0700, "JohnO" <t696asm@yahoo.com> wrote: Quote: Milan wrote: make it part of your advertising to alert people to this, and to make clear you are doing things the right way. if you explain it without jargon and simply, you will get lots of customers who hate these kind of shady dealers. Who do you think buys pirated DVDs? The same people looking for a bargain on PCs. They don't care, and many of them probably like "sticking it to Bill." That's unfortunate, but these days a lot of people have no ethics. Don't advertise this. It's bad marketing strategy, as well as a great way to find yourself under a microscope. Even bringing it up to your prospective customers is bad. If they ask why your systems cost more, however, make it clear: when you buy from me you get a *genuine Win XP install disk* and not a bootleg copy. And leave it right there. You can advertise the fact that you provide genuine Win XP install CDs, but don't EVER publish anything that says your competitor is a pirate. Are you saying Dell is a pirate.? Thumper Quote: Do your competitor's systems pass the WGA checks? If not, your job is easy...his customers cannot get updates and the extra tools. If they DO pass, then you need to contact MS directly. There used to be a dedicated email address for that, piracy@microsoft or something like that. -John O
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TwoBearCatz Guest	Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? SBFan2000 wrote: Quote: You better make 100% sure that they are using pirate software. If thier not and you "make it part of your advertising" that your competitor is using pirate software and in fact they aren't, your got yourself into a lawsuit. If they are then certainly tell people because it illegal and they should pay for breaking the law. But be 100% sure before you advertise that! On that topic, I did the only homework I could this past week. I wound up doing work for a customer that recently bought two PC's from said business on the same day. Both PC's came "bundled" with XP Home - no disks, and no keys to be found! Before I left, I took a look at the PID's for both the PC's. Interestingly enough, they were both "OEM" PID's and both were identical except for the last trailing digit. It was inc/dec by one per machine. (e.g. one machine was ending in 5 the other in 6). I posted about this earlier in the MS newsgroup figuring someone could say for sure this was a pirate job or not - but I never got a straight answer on the PID thing. Even though XP bootlegging is NOT one of my hobbies or business plans, I'm really thinking the PID's would always come up looking fairly "random" from PC to PC. The customer claims they get the XP updates "OK". I wonder if this is their sneaky way of making up "unique" keys to get past WGA? Any ideas?
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SBFan2000 Guest	Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? I'm not a MS professional so take this all with a grain of salt, but I do know that a single XP disc can be installed about 3 or 4 times before MS won't allow it. That is, its physically possible, not necessary legal. If I buy a disc I can install it on my desktop and my laptop legally. What I can't do legally is install it on my desktop and my friends laptop. When the installation goes to register with XP it will activate 3 or 4 times and then it will start returning an error that it can't be activated anymore. This I've seen, a guy I know got a XP disc from a family member to install on two of his machines. The first installed and activated fine, the other installed but when it went to activate it said something to the effect of "This copy of XP has can't be activated, it has reached its installation limit." What that business probably did it take an OEM disc and install that same disc twice, once on each computer. This is not illegal since they went to the same user but that user should have been given the disc and the key. This is assuming or course that the user is keeping both systems. I couldn't say 100% that the business is pirating because it is possible they did this because they knew they were going to the same user. However, that is highly unlikly and very poor business practice. That buyer should return and demand the key and disc. Chances are that business is installing it as many times as they can. I would contact MS and have them check it out! "TwoBearCatz" <twobearcatz@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1154884668.522525.192890@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... Quote: SBFan2000 wrote: You better make 100% sure that they are using pirate software. If thier not and you "make it part of your advertising" that your competitor is using pirate software and in fact they aren't, your got yourself into a lawsuit. If they are then certainly tell people because it illegal and they should pay for breaking the law. But be 100% sure before you advertise that! On that topic, I did the only homework I could this past week. I wound up doing work for a customer that recently bought two PC's from said business on the same day. Both PC's came "bundled" with XP Home - no disks, and no keys to be found! Before I left, I took a look at the PID's for both the PC's. Interestingly enough, they were both "OEM" PID's and both were identical except for the last trailing digit. It was inc/dec by one per machine. (e.g. one machine was ending in 5 the other in 6). I posted about this earlier in the MS newsgroup figuring someone could say for sure this was a pirate job or not - but I never got a straight answer on the PID thing. Even though XP bootlegging is NOT one of my hobbies or business plans, I'm really thinking the PID's would always come up looking fairly "random" from PC to PC. The customer claims they get the XP updates "OK". I wonder if this is their sneaky way of making up "unique" keys to get past WGA? Any ideas?
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JohnO Guest	Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? Thumper wrote: Quote: On 4 Aug 2006 05:18:34 -0700, "JohnO" <t696asm@yahoo.com> wrote: Milan wrote: make it part of your advertising to alert people to this, and to make clear you are doing things the right way. if you explain it without jargon and simply, you will get lots of customers who hate these kind of shady dealers. Who do you think buys pirated DVDs? The same people looking for a bargain on PCs. They don't care, and many of them probably like "sticking it to Bill." That's unfortunate, but these days a lot of people have no ethics. Don't advertise this. It's bad marketing strategy, as well as a great way to find yourself under a microscope. Even bringing it up to your prospective customers is bad. If they ask why your systems cost more, however, make it clear: when you buy from me you get a *genuine Win XP install disk* and not a bootleg copy. And leave it right there. You can advertise the fact that you provide genuine Win XP install CDs, but don't EVER publish anything that says your competitor is a pirate. Are you saying Dell is a pirate.? I'm pretty certain the answer is no, but could you explain that question anyway? -John O
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TwoBearCatz Guest	Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? SBFan2000 wrote: Quote: I'm not a MS professional so take this all with a grain of salt, but I do know that a single XP disc can be installed about 3 or 4 times before MS won't allow it. That is, its physically possible, not necessary legal. If I buy a disc I can install it on my desktop and my laptop legally. What I can't do legally is install it on my desktop and my friends laptop. When the installation goes to register with XP it will activate 3 or 4 times and then it will start returning an error that it can't be activated anymore. This I've seen, a guy I know got a XP disc from a family member to install on two of his machines. The first installed and activated fine, the other installed but when it went to activate it said something to the effect of "This copy of XP has can't be activated, it has reached its installation limit." What that business probably did it take an OEM disc and install that same disc twice, once on each computer. This is not illegal since they went to the same user but that user should have been given the disc and the key. This is assuming or course that the user is keeping both systems. I couldn't say 100% that the business is pirating because it is possible they did this because they knew they were going to the same user. However, that is highly unlikly and very poor business practice. That buyer should return and demand the key and disc. Chances are that business is installing it as many times as they can. I would contact MS and have them check it out! What you have written is technically correct, *however* since when is ONE seat of XP (or any other software for that matter) more than one seat?! I've heard this kind of nonsense bantered about by my elcheapo customers in the past. I've even heard the notion that MS "allows" you to install one license of XP on two computers provided you are the owner of both computers. I've never seen proof that MS indeed provides for this in the license. Even if MS did provide for this, they certainly wouldn't be providing for a reseller to do this on computers!? Again, I agree with you on the fact they not only should but *must* provide an XP disc and key (pref attached to the chassis) when selling WinXP. The funny part about all that is that if you follow that stipulation you obviously couldn't sell the same seat of XP on two machines in any case since one machine wouldn't have a key sticker. Of course, these things change a bit when dealing with volume licensing but then again we aren't dealing with that here. Even the largest "volume" PC dealers in the world are never caught without a valid WinXP key sticker affixed to the chassis of their computers. At any rate, I *think* you are on the right track about how these PID's wound up nearly identical. That's the question I've been trying to get a definite answer on to "prove" piracy (at least in this case).
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J. Clarke Guest	Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? TwoBearCatz wrote: Quote: SBFan2000 wrote: You better make 100% sure that they are using pirate software. If thier not and you "make it part of your advertising" that your competitor is using pirate software and in fact they aren't, your got yourself into a lawsuit. If they are then certainly tell people because it illegal and they should pay for breaking the law. But be 100% sure before you advertise that! On that topic, I did the only homework I could this past week. I wound up doing work for a customer that recently bought two PC's from said business on the same day. Both PC's came "bundled" with XP Home - no disks, and no keys to be found! Before I left, I took a look at the PID's for both the PC's. Interestingly enough, they were both "OEM" PID's and both were identical except for the last trailing digit. It was inc/dec by one per machine. (e.g. one machine was ending in 5 the other in 6). I posted about this earlier in the MS newsgroup figuring someone could say for sure this was a pirate job or not - but I never got a straight answer on the PID thing. Even though XP bootlegging is NOT one of my hobbies or business plans, I'm really thinking the PID's would always come up looking fairly "random" from PC to PC. The customer claims they get the XP updates "OK". I wonder if this is their sneaky way of making up "unique" keys to get past WGA? Any ideas? Yeah. I have an idea. Why don't you run your business your way and let them run their business their way. What leads you to believe that making up keys will get past WGA? Microsoft knows what keys they have issued. Further, the made-up keys won't get past WPA, and without that WGA validation is irrelevant. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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TwoBearCatz Guest	Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do about piracy and the competition? Quote: Who do you think buys pirated DVDs? The same people looking for a bargain on PCs. They don't care, and many of them probably like "sticking it to Bill." That's unfortunate, but these days a lot of people have no ethics. Don't advertise this. It's bad marketing strategy, as well as a great way to find yourself under a microscope. Even bringing it up to your prospective customers is bad. If they ask why your systems cost more, however, make it clear: when you buy from me you get a *genuine Win XP install disk* and not a bootleg copy. And leave it right there. You can advertise the fact that you provide genuine Win XP install CDs, but don't EVER publish anything that says your competitor is a pirate. Do your competitor's systems pass the WGA checks? If not, your job is easy...his customers cannot get updates and the extra tools. If they DO pass, then you need to contact MS directly. There used to be a dedicated email address for that, piracy@microsoft or something like that. Those are good business points that I already practice. It's generally bad strategy to advertise against any competition. However, this problem NEEDS to be addressed a lot more in the future. If you are in this business full time and deal with the general public, trust me it will become a problem for you. Pirated software is even a problem dealing with other small businesses and their computer systems. It usually comes down to something like this. Said customer has expensive pirated software on their machines and they develop problems with these machines. If (as part of a repair) you reformat, etc of course they "lose" the pirated software they never had to begin with. Now, YOU have a problem on your hands even though it was never your problem to begin with. Many of them seem to know they have pirated software and have probable been turned down or had problems with PC service companies in the past because of it. They'll try to get you in the middle of their problem by saying stuff like "I don't get it" or "I lost the CD" or "Look, I paid for this from so and so". The part that is amusing the point of absurdity is that if another company is involved they will almost NEVER give you the name of the company. These same customers will NEVER lose the name of anyone else they like or dislike. Definitely a coverup.
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